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Evil_Lurks
The Father

From: New Jorsey
Registered: 03-23-05
Posts: 1864
Pay down some debts, lmao this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say everything is served on a plate.

Here is a credit card, go max it out and fall into 20 thousand dollars in debt. Now here's some money back from the government to help you pay that off since you can't do it on your own.

^ how is that the proper way to proceed with teaching people that they can't just buy **** when they don't have money?

The reason we got into those house crises is because we were on some universal housing ****. You can't afford a home? No problem, you can purchase it anyway!

These policies don't do anything but set us back.


_______________________________________
In a sec I throw the suc to your **** dick
Everybody hit the deck, Biggie bout to get some wreck
Quick to leave you in a coffin, for slick talkin
You better act like CeCe, and keep on walkin


10-16-08 04:24 AM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
I restate: it's not socialism. Socialism is everyone earns the same regardless of the work done. It's taxes. If you're arguing that taxes is socialistic, then you're welcome to create your own country tax-free. They're simply raising the taxes the rich pay, which yields more money for the government to spend. REGARDLESS OF THE TAX RATE, AS LONG AS TAXES EXIST, THE GOVERNMENT IS TAKING OUR MONEY AND SPENDING IT. SOCIALISM IS NOT DEFINED BY A 4% TAX HIKE ON THE RICH. Trust me. Ask the real Karl Marx. Socialism is a cop-out defense by republicans who would like to keep the rich rich, because that's the crowd they cater to, and are largely funded by.


Iskander wrote:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=29022


I hope you have a whole lot more to say because this guy is not doing you any favors, though his title is aptly named "Clueless on Economics." He sure is.


"Now oil prices have fallen below $80 a barrel. Experts expect that prices will continue to fall to below $60 a barrel within the next week or two."
He argues that the price of oil is purely driven by supply and demand. No greed. No speculation. So then why is it, that when oil peaked at $147.27 a barrel, it was $4.10+/gallon, and now that it's $80 (MSNBC says even $75 now) a barrel, it's still $3.20? At 42 gallons per barrel, oil went from $3.50/gallon, charged at $4.10, now down to $1.90/gall sold at $3.20. Now if it's purely supply and demand, as this nut job claims, then explain to me how a 45% dip in crude oil prices drops the cost of a gallon of gas 22%? Oh, that's right. He's a giant tool.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12400801/
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleu ... _chart.gif

And this guy railed against properly inflated tires. Sneered at it, even.
“Making sure your tires are properly inflated -- simple thing. But we could save all the oil that they're talking about getting off drilling -- if everybody was just inflating their tires. And getting regular tune-ups. You'd actually save just as much!” That stands as one of the most stunningly stupid presidential policy pronouncements in modern history.
Well, got some bad news, again, great big tool, as plainly and clearly evidenced by the following:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 ... ssure.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/608/

Are you still convinced this guy is credible? Here, let's do his windfall profits tax argument. He says that oil companies make 9%, which is like any other company. 9%. U.S. Motor Gasoline Consumption. 9,286,000 barrels/day (390 million gallons/day) http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html The data is found under the column "Disposition Related."

.09 x 390 million gal/day = 35.1 million gal/day profit. Now, if gas sells at $3.20/gal, that's $112.3 million/day profit. And if gas is $4.10, it's $143.9 profit. Compare it to $1.80/gal or $2.50/gal. It's $63.2 and $87.8 million/day profit. So by providing no extra service, yielding no better gas mileage, by doing nothing other than maintaining a 9% profit, they went from earning less than $63.2 million /day to as much as $143.9 million/day. An extra 80 million a day, for not doing ****. And this "economist expert" can't understand that that could be reasonably taxed? What an absolute moron.

Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this guy's obvious bias and lack of knowledge. He's a conservative, and probably is also bought out by big oil.

And even acknowledging that people don't know how to live within their means, how does giving them less tax relief help them? Your argument is ... "leave my money alone. I can spend it better." But for the people that need it, your argument is, "you're too inept to know how to spend it." Point made!

And I have debts with college loans. I couldn't use my own money (tax break, I keep more of my own money. It's not a hand-out/"money back from the government." It's our own money. I don't get how you confuse this) to pay off this debt without being called irresponsible? When people buy cars or houses, and can't afford to pay in full because they're not rich, having loans to pay off is irresponsible? Well, we should all be so fortunate as to be able to pay in full. Or wait, that would upset the monopoly of the rich.

The housing crisis is another matter, and certainly irresponsible lending contributed greatly to the mess we're in. But again, there is no correlation between taking more from the rich and setting back the US. I'm quite confused as to the conclusions you draw.

I may edit this after I check out that other link. And Plumber Bob said he makes ~$270k/yr. $250k are taxed $12, while $600k are taxed $115k, under Obama's plan, and it's probably some parabolic increase in between. He'll probably have several thousand more in taxes. He might foreclose on his mansion. But I seriously think he'll be fine and CARE SO MUCH LESS ABOUT JUST ONE DUDE WHO'S WELL OFF COMPARED TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS. On the one hand, good for him for doing so well. On the other hand, he can suck my dick. Have him move to Canada if he doesn't like it, so someone more appreciative of the opportunity to do what he's doing can fill his void. Seriously, of all the people to feel sympathetic for, the well-off are not high on my list. I don't scorn them (at least the humble ones). But I'm not worried about their money.

Yeah, that second link is pretty much just as one-sided. All stats point to how much the rich are taxed and what chunk of the federal income taxes they make up, but ignore the amount of money they have compared to the middle class. Compare his rhetoric to stuff like this (though this is more global than national):
http://www.endgame.org/primer-wealth.html

4.5 billion people live on less than $1,500 per year.
The richest 1% of adults owned 40% of the world’s total assets in the year 2000. The richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of total assets. The bottom half of the world adult population owned 1% of global wealth.


http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2006/Dec7a.html

People should pay according to their means. A person in the US could probably get by on some $30k/yr without asking for too much, and to me it is totally fair and just to tax that individual near next to nothing, because most everything he/she makes goes towards living expenses. When you start making great excesses of wealth, well above and beyond living comfortably, you can start taking on a greater share of the responsibility. If you're extortionately wealthy, you probably have cheated taxes or people out of money somewhere along the line, and I just plain don't feel your pain.


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10-16-08 08:05 AM
Website  
S u c k Y
Moderator

Registered: 04-22-06
Posts: 452
Talking about politics, you guys know that your vote or the vote of of any american doesn't really decides who's our next president right?

    http://www.lwvma.org/web2/PresElectProc ... sident.pdf


   Some interesting parts about the link.

   " Did you know that the votes you cast in presidential elections are not for candidates but are for a slate of electors pledged to the candidates of your choice?

     These electors, along with the electors chosen in all the other states and the District of Columbia, really elect the president and vice president. Collectively referred to as the Electoral College, electors are frequently not listed on the ballot and are almost always unknown to most voters. In other words, America’s voters do not directly elect the two people who hold the highest offices in the land."

   " How are electors chosen and what do they do?

    The state political parties choose electors in primaries, at conventions, or by a vote of the party’s central committee, often as a reward for faithful party service. In Massachusetts, electors are chosen by meetings of the state parties. Candidates who are running inde-pendent of a political party choose their own electors." 

  So the electors are members of a party?  Thank god for total fairness and neutral participation !

   " Are electors required to vote for the candidates to whom they are pledged?

   The framers, intending that electors would be independent and knowledgeable, did not bind them to vote for the presidential and vice-presidential candidates to whom they were pledged. The majority of states, however, now have laws that bind electors in some way. Massachusetts law requires electors to sign a form pledging they will vote for their party’s candidates."

   And the most amazing part of the DEMOCRATIC voting system in this country

  " Can a candidate win the popular vote and still lose the election?

   A candidate can receive a majority of the popular vote but not win the majority of elec-toral votes. This is primarily due to the winner-take-all rule that most states apply and how the electoral votes are apportioned among the states.
Four presidents have lost the popular vote but won the presidency: John Quincy Adams in 1824, Rutherford B. Hayes in 1876, Benjamin Harrison in 1888 and George W. Bush in 2000.
"

   None talks about this and I mean no one (tv networks , newspapers, etc). George Bush got in office for this bullshit, if it was decided by a popular vote which is how a president should be elected in a democratic country, Bush would have never been elected.

   It is really scary that 538 ppl whom we don't anything about decides who's the next president.   

   Wicket, is the voting system as broken and so open to corruption as this in U.K ?

Last edited by S u c k Y (10-16-08 04:29 PM)


_______________________________________
THE ONLY CONSTANT IN LIFE IS CHANGE.

10-16-08 04:19 PM
   
Wicket
entertainment

From: ILLINOIS
Registered: 12-07-04
Posts: 1013

S u c k Y wrote:

Wicket, is the voting system as broken and so open to corruption as this in U.K ?


Not so much, but I pretty much vote on who has the best hair so it evens out.


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10-16-08 04:47 PM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
It is talked about (though not frequently) on news programs. That is the concept behind the number 538. 435 represent the number of congressman in the House of Reps. 100 more for the number of senators, and 3 for the District of Columbia = 538. To win the presidency, you need a majority vote, or 270 electoral votes. And most of us indeed should have learned about that during Bush's election. It was devised that way long ago because the masses were fairly uninformed about politics. So like the idea of a republic, where the voted officials represent the public (representatives), these representatives were to be heavily informed about the candidates so they could make an informed decision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_votes :

Each state has a number of electors equal to the number of its Senators and Representatives in the United States Congress. Additionally, Washington, D.C. is given a number of electors equal to the number held by the smallest states.
So the electoral votes are reflected by the population of the state, as argued here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... ortionment

United States congressional apportionment is the redistribution of the 435 seats in the United States House of Representatives among the 50 states in consequence of the constitutionally mandated decennial census.


It probably should become based just on popular vote now though. Most electoral votes vote in a partisan fashion anyways, and with how information technology has permeated the country, there seems little purpose to have anyone represent the electorate now, and I think there are a couple New England states that have written this into their constitution, when enough other states support it. So there's some movement to modernize this medieval mechanism, Mr. Man.

Also, doesn't anyone think the national election should be a national holiday? How can we not afford 1 more day off in 4 years to something so vital a part to our democracy?


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10-16-08 05:52 PM
Website  
Butchk
Moderator

From: Chicago,IL
Registered: 08-07-06
Posts: 839
Driven by Insomnia formerly gamers now Political Analysts.

_______________________________________
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."

10-16-08 06:08 PM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
Bringing a little life to these forums though, eh? And again, it's just a phase. It shall pass.  ;)

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10-16-08 07:58 PM
Website  
S u c k Y
Moderator

Registered: 04-22-06
Posts: 452
This is what's going to happen.

   Obama is gonna win the popular votes but for some "interesting" reason Mcain is gonna be the next president.

  Someone told me that the next president was already decided, and that it would be Mcain. The electoral process is just a formality to make the americans feel warm and cozy in the inside.

  I really hope I'm wrong.


_______________________________________
THE ONLY CONSTANT IN LIFE IS CHANGE.

10-16-08 10:08 PM
   
Butchk
Moderator

From: Chicago,IL
Registered: 08-07-06
Posts: 839
Have fun with this http://www.palinaspresident.us/

_______________________________________
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."

10-16-08 11:03 PM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
You are wrong, Sucky.

www.fivethirtyeight.com See the percent chance of winning on the pie charts on the left. But especially, check out www.electoral-vote.com. It's not going to be close.

Lastly, I found the rebate thing you were talking about, Evil. And I'd like to preface this discussion with the fact that Sarah Palin did the same thing in Alaska - used a windfall profit's tax on the oil companies to give money back to the Alaskan residents, the reason her approval rating was so high. Now then, sources:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008 ... again.html :

Contrary to the ad's claim, Obama has not proposed raising taxes on home heating oil. In fact, just the opposite. Obama is proposing rebate checks of up to $500 per individual or $1,000 per family for what he calls an "emergency energy rebate." Obama says the rebate would be large enough that a typical family in a northern state could offset the full increase in home heating costs that have resulted from rising oil prices. Obama plans to fund the rebate through a five-year windfall profits tax on oil companies.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/674/ for Palin's version.


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10-17-08 12:32 AM
Website  
S u c k Y
Moderator

Registered: 04-22-06
Posts: 452
butch wtf, I only see a green screen.  hax

_______________________________________
THE ONLY CONSTANT IN LIFE IS CHANGE.

10-17-08 01:29 AM
   
Butchk
Moderator

From: Chicago,IL
Registered: 08-07-06
Posts: 839
Link aint broken it works fine for me unless you dont have the latest flash Player.

_______________________________________
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."

10-17-08 01:47 AM
   
Iskander
Moderator

From: In the aeroplane over the sea
Registered: 04-24-06
Posts: 359
Okay, I'll attack the tire pressure comment first.  While it's true that we are wasting gas because of improperly inflated tires, but it was still a ridiculous and stupid statement by obama.  1.2 billion gallons a year, according to you source?  That's one bucket in an ocean.  We would save even more if everyone properly accelerated and kept it under 60 mph.  The amount of savings would probably be a whole lot more than properly inflated tires. But that's not the point. What obama said was basically this:  If you people weren't so stupid and lazy and made sure your tires were properly inflated, then we wouldn't be so dependant on foreign oil.

Liberals and Obama are against this, and all drilling for that matter:

http://ostseis.anl.gov/guide/oilshale/index.cfm

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/u ... e_oil.html

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=61488

http://www.sibelle.info/oped15.htm

http://geology.com/usgs/bakken-formation-oil.shtml

http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresour ... 80317.html

Even the low estimates (just estimates, mind you), is still double what Obama said we could save.  SO it would certianly help, it's not something viable, because we as americans are lazy.  But it sill makes Obama liar, or at the very least greatly mistaken.

There is no good reason not to be drilling everywhere we think there is oil.  I grow tired of the nonsense that it wouldn't affect gas prices or it would take 20 years to see any viable oil.  It wouldn't necessarily affect gas prices sure, and we wouldn't see viable oil for years, but that is a weak argument against doing it.  So we should just not do anything at all?

The point is this: this country, the world for that matter, is dependant on oil.  There's no way around that.  While we need to develop other fuel sources, we cannot abandon oil anytime soon.  The middle east has us by the balls.  About us not reaping oil for years: The best time to do something is 10 years ago, the second best time is now. 


About Joe the plumber and you claim that republicans use the word socialism as a copout.  Ok, I'll start calling Obama a quasi-socialist, not a full blown socialist, or marxist.  One of the backbones of socialism is "spreading the wealth around"  HE SAID IT HIMSELF, HE WOULD SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND. 

Now taxing the rich and tax-cutting the not so rich is the exact same thing as taking their money and giving it to us.  And since 30-40% of americans don't pay taxes....

While I too have no sympathy for the rich, and agree that if they gave up some of their money the world would be a much better place, more than likely.  But it's still their money, and not ours.  There are a lot of things wrong with the world, but the government stepping in to take care of it more often than not makes things worse.

Socialism, marxism, communism.  These have failed everywhere they have been tried, and there is a 100 million body count in their wake.  We as a country are leaning towards these creeds.  We need less government, not more, as Obama would have.

I think you'll get a kick out of this though:

http://townhall.com/columnists/LauraHol ... the_c_word

You don't need to attack it, she is partisan, and an alarmist, but it's still interesting.

On a sidenote, I may not get to vote this year, I moved to a different county and had to reregister, I applied for an absentee ballot and was rejected, even though I mailed in my registration weeks before.  I hope they sort it out and I'm registered before the election.  I was probably going third party anyway.

I'll contiribute more of my thoughts as time permits.


_______________________________________
my chalk outline will stalk these grounds

10-18-08 12:09 PM
   
Evil_Lurks
The Father

From: New Jorsey
Registered: 03-23-05
Posts: 1864
Ron Paul for the win. LoL

_______________________________________
In a sec I throw the suc to your **** dick
Everybody hit the deck, Biggie bout to get some wreck
Quick to leave you in a coffin, for slick talkin
You better act like CeCe, and keep on walkin


10-18-08 03:21 PM
   
S u c k Y
Moderator

Registered: 04-22-06
Posts: 452

Evil_Lurks wrote:

Ron Paul for the win. LoL



   Ron Paul was the ONLY candidate that said it how it is, no BS , no lies. He would have been the best candidate by far to get this economy out of the ****-hole it is now.

   Too bad the American ppl doesn't like honest and in your face politicians because it scares them and just call that candidate "crazy - nuts".

  They rather vote for someone that are gonna tell them "everything will we fine, I'll fix everything for you just snapping my fingers".

  The Americans let pass a great opportunity to elect someone that really knows wtf is going on with this country. Now we are gonna pay the consequences.

  Ron Paul '12    :duals:

(In the case you were being sarcastic lurks ) **** you  ;)

Last edited by S u c k Y (10-18-08 09:35 PM)


_______________________________________
THE ONLY CONSTANT IN LIFE IS CHANGE.

10-18-08 09:31 PM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
No need to sound dismissive about "my source" of tire pressure. It's right there in the link, and links are provided:
A far more authoritative estimate comes from the U.S. Government Accountability Office, which puts the figure at 1.2 billion gallons of fuel per year. In a report dated Feb. 9, 2007, GAO says:

    GAO: The Department of Energy’s designated economist on this issue indicated that, of the 130 billion gallons of fuel that the Transportation Research Board (TRB) estimated were used in passenger cars and light trucks in 2005, about 1.2 billion gallons were wasted as a result of driving on underinflated tires.


Now it's true not everyone will maintain properly inflated tires, so we will never save that 1.2 billion gallons/year. But it would save the individual about 3% gas mileage immediately. And if we weren't so dismissive as a whole about the concept, maybe we could recoup .6 billion gallons/year nationally. So what makes Obama a liar, as you put it? And if you wanna go that route, McCain lies as much as he tells the truth (relative to investigated campaign claims/assertions/speeches): http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... hn-mccain/

Regardless, the gas push is a dated vision and policy. The United States has on reserves about 3% of the world's national supply of crude oil, and we use 25% of the world's oil. It's a very finite supply, it's going to take a while to produce and have an effect, and it doesn't improve upon the carbon emission situation. And both candidates are pledging to eliminate foreign oil imports within 10 years (at least from countries with terrorist-friendly regimes, I imagine; we import about 1/3 oil from Canada and Mexico). The move forward is renewable energy which is environmentally safe, unlimited in supply, and the more you invest and build up the infrastructure, the cheaper it becomes. But Obama has given some leeway in his plan for domestic oil supplies. A large concern of his is carbon emissions. His is all for clean coal technology and carbon sequestration. Besides there are over 68 million acres that aren't producing squat - http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/629/
The site even argues they're taking measures to produce oil (they're not idly doing nothing), and still no oil is being produced. So this whole off-shore drilling business is a fringe argument. It will have little effect on our energy supply.

As to oil shale, in addition to cost efficiency -
Both mining and processing of oil shale involve a variety of environmental impacts, such as global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, disturbance of mined land, disposal of spent shale, use of water resources, and impacts on air and water quality. The development of a commercial oil shale industry in the United States would also have significant social and economic impacts on local communities. Other impediments to development of the oil shale industry in the United States include the relatively high cost of producing oil from oil shale (currently greater than $60 per barrel), and the lack of regulations to lease oil shale.
Again, he favors clean coal technology and carbon sequestration technology. But that's going to take money. And we're in a recession, so I guess the rich can't afford more taxes, as evidenced by Wall Street's continued social events.

ANWR, I take an environmentally friendly approach, as I do generally, and don't support drilling there. Here's a relevant passage from this link: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/678/


But the reality of tapping the oil reserves in ANWR isn't that simple and debates over economic benefits and environmental costs rely on plenty of conjecture. An authoritative estimate of what ANWR might hold for oil production comes from a three-year study by the U.S. Geological Survey that was released in 1998, which estimates that between 5.7-billion and 16-billion barrels of recoverable oil might be found in ANWR. But the report concludes that the oil is not concentrated in a single area but is instead spread throughout the refuge, meaning the 2,000-acre cap could only be viable if those acres weren't contiguous. And, between those acres would have to be a network of roads and pipelines connecting them.

In fact, the GOP proposal that would have set the 2,000-acre cap acknowledges this fact without stating it outright. For example, the legislation specified that the acres would be used on production equipment, airstrips and berms and structural supports for pipeplines. But it wouldn't include roads, and the legislation also says the acreage toward that limit only would count equipment that touches the ground so that miles of pipeline wouldn't count, only the stanchions holding it up.

Environmentalists contend pipelines and roads and related infrastructure would cover a much larger area than a mere 2,000 acres, which could fragment fragile wildlife habitat.


And on the whole, ANWR is a percentage of the 3% oil reserves we have. Again, to me, a fringe element. So I don't know about that whole "no good reason not to drill everywhere." That's a wholly one-sided approach, and a short-sited one at that. So sure a better time would have been 10 years ago (or before), and now is indeed a good time, when considering the oil we import from the mid east. But we should still be doing more with the acres of land we already have available rather than crusading over ANWR.

Quasi-socialist, no. Psuedo-socialist, fine. I don't care what term some random "Joe" defines it as. It's ~4% tax hike on the rich. And it's revenue the government will spend as it always has. It is in no uncertain terms completely ridiculous to say that a 29% tax for the rich is just fine, but a 33% tax on the rich is socialism. The numbers are probably off, but as an example, it's suitable. It's ridiculous. At 29%, it's still "spread the wealth around," which is just a slandered expression to hint at socialism, even if it's what we've always done anyways. So spare me the nonsense.


"Now taxing the rich and tax-cutting the not so rich is the exact same thing as taking their money and giving it to us.  And since 30-40% of americans don't pay taxes..."


No. No! If you were a dog, I'd rub your nose in it. If the lower/middle class have a lower tax bracket, that means they are PAYING LESS. I DID THIS IN CAPS LAST TIME SO IT WOULD SINK IN. THE POOR ARE PAYING LESS. THE POOR ARE GIVING TO THE GOVERNMENT A SMALLER PORTION OF THEIR INCOME. THE POOR ARE KEEPING A LARGER PORTION OF THEIR OWN MONEY. So it does not translate into "people who don't pay taxes get money from the rich," with exception to the windfall profits tax I've already discussed.

And I see how you've tied socialism to hundreds of thousands of deaths world-wide, but correlation does not equal causation. And it was pretty ridiculous for you to even bother stating that. Unless you care to explain how Obama's tax plan somehow translates into national genocide.

And I thought Ron Paul was cool, though I would have certainly needed to look up some of his stances and claims. It seems most of his own party could refute some of his positions, and his gold-backed dollar idea sounded as if that was a bad idea, as a friend of mine reasoned. But those would be some of the things I'd have to look up in detail.


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10-19-08 12:02 AM
Website  
Evil_Lurks
The Father

From: New Jorsey
Registered: 03-23-05
Posts: 1864
No I wasn't, I supported him when he was running.

_______________________________________
In a sec I throw the suc to your **** dick
Everybody hit the deck, Biggie bout to get some wreck
Quick to leave you in a coffin, for slick talkin
You better act like CeCe, and keep on walkin


10-19-08 12:29 AM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770


lol.

Also, meant to post it earlier, this is quite an interesting article:

http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2006/Dec7a.html


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10-19-08 03:11 AM
Website  
Evil_Lurks
The Father

From: New Jorsey
Registered: 03-23-05
Posts: 1864
I copied this from a different site, but it's an interesting read:

His name is Samuel "Joseph" Wurzelbacher. The media labeled him "Joe the Plumber."
Everything else about private citizen "joe" should of been off limits, but in this Thugocracy
the libral media attacks whomever dare question The One. Mr. Wurzelbacher was just minding his own business when he had the audacity Barack Obama's favorite word after "taxes" to question Senator Obama's intention to "spread the wealth around." Wurzelbacher, an average Joe, had the further audacity to object to Obama's wealth-sharing intentions and voice his own dream of someday just someday owning a small plumbing company. Of course Joe didn't due anything wrong here, except you know expose obama for the socalist he truely is by asking him a really good straight forward question. Which is all that really matters, the attacks on joe are irrelevent. Espeically when you factor in Congressman Charlie Rangel, Chairman of the House Ways & Means Committee, owes a lot more taxes due to unreported income than Joe.

Furthermore, McCain was probably correct in stating that Joe's taxes would be raised under Obama's "spread the wealth" scheme. Beyond that and this is the important thing Obama has failed to define what constitutes a "small business."

This is an argument in government that has been going on for decades. Ever since "small business set-asides" came into being back in the mid 1980's. The debate is over the fact that a certain amount say $250,000 in one industry that makes that business a "small" business will not be applicable for a business in another industry.

A plumbing business that takes in $250,000 a year mostly in gross billings is still considered a small business even though the exact same amount in sales for a retailer might put that owner in a different category.

The point is many "small business" owners in construction will probably pay considerably more in taxes under Obama. And many of those same businesses will NOT be exempt under Obama's statist health insurance plan. And Obama's health plan does mandate health coverage. So If Joe doesn't provide health insurance for employees, he would face some unspecified penalty. How Maoist of him.


What I have learned is when a politician says they're going to raise your taxes, what they really mean is they're going to raise tax rates. Lost on the minds of Democrats and Barack Obama is the fact that an increase in federal tax rates does not necessarily mean an increase in federal tax revenues. As a matter of fact, history reveals just the opposite is true.


In 1961 when John F. Kennedy became President, the top marginal tax rate was 91%. Kennedy lowered the top rate to 70%, and more revenue came into the federal treasury from the top wage earners than under the 91% rate. Why? For the same reason that more revenue is often raised at department stores sales than when merchandise is at the regular price. More people execute transactions more often, which increase revenue, even though items are being sold for less. When tax rates are lowered, more people execute transactions that generate tax revenue more often than execute them at higher tax rates. Why? At the lower tax rate, the transaction represents a better value to the taxpayer. They get to keep more income per tax generating transaction, but the increase in the number of transactions generates more revenue for the government. The goal of tax policy should be to generate more tax transactions and the way to do that is to have the equivalent of a tax sale!


When Ronald Reagan became President in 1981, the top marginal tax rate was still 70%. Reagan lowered the top rate to 50%, and then to 28%, and at every reduction of the top marginal rate, revenues to the federal government from top wage earners increased! Seven years after the Bush tax cuts of 2001, we still hear the phrase "Bush tax cuts for the rich" despite a 2005 joint IRS / Congressional Budget Office report revealing the top 5% of income earners saw their share of taxes paid rise at a faster rate than their share of income under the Bush tax rates than the Clinton tax rates. Yes, their share of income rose, but their share of taxes paid rose faster because of the attractiveness of executing tax-generating transactions at Bush's lower rates more often.

See, the Democrats desire to punish financial success as if it is always undeserved. Punishing success is more important than allowing more revenue to come to the federal government because of financial success. Democrats need scapegoats to make the enemy of the middle class through class warfare rhetoric. To admit that lower tax rates are a win-win situation for tax payers at every income level and for the government would eliminate the need for scapegoats to use to rally the middle class against the rich, and thus largely eliminate the need to vote for Democrat socialists. The Democrats need to raise tax rates on the rich for political reasons, because economically it makes no sense if the goal is to increase revenues.

Thanks but no thanks to thugocracy and Chairman Maobama. The Coming Obama Thugocracy by Michael Barone on National Review Online

Chairman maobama being condescending towards Joe after the fact is Change you can believe in: http://www.viralvideochart.com/youtu...id=Sqis9mRcWl4 Of course he's not only mocking joe but lying as well when he intimates that Joe is making $250,000 a year. However, Joe never said he made $250,000 a year but rather that he wanted to buy a company and hoped to make $250-$280 thousand. Barack Obama? That's Change one can sneer at.


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In a sec I throw the suc to your **** dick
Everybody hit the deck, Biggie bout to get some wreck
Quick to leave you in a coffin, for slick talkin
You better act like CeCe, and keep on walkin


10-19-08 04:36 PM
   
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
Why did you not link the link you copied it from? :) What's interesting about this article is how little the author understands.

This "Joe" character was not a big deal until the debates came up, for starters. John McCain mentioned him 21 times at the debate, to Obama's 4 or 5. And Joe was perfectly fine in asking about Obama's taxes. Questions from the audience are meant to clear up their concerns or misconceptions. But Joe became this symbol of the American Dream somehow, and it became a focal point of the debate. He makes $40k/year, and would get $1,200 some dollars in tax cuts from Obama's plan.

" Of course Joe didn't due anything wrong here, except you know expose obama for the socalist he truely is..."  *Face palm* And doesn't this guy have a spell checker? Socalist? Socal? ist? Truely? Instead of truly?

"Furthermore, McCain was probably correct in stating that Joe's taxes would be raised under Obama's "spread the wealth" scheme." No. Idiot. This is why it was important to look into Joe, since he became the focus of this campaign. Because it is entirely inaccurate to say that he would get taxed under Obama's tax plan, but McCain would be making this case all the way through election day if no one had ever brought some light to it .

Next, the author quibbles over the definition of a small business.
http://www.politifact.org/truth-o-meter ... ess-taxes/


It's not clear from the exchange just what Joe means when he says the business "makes" up to $280,000 a year. Is he talking about total revenue? Profits? That's an important point here and it's one that Obama and Joe the Plumber never discussed. Based on Obama's proposals and current tax policy, for Joe's taxes to rise Joe would have to "make" $250,000 in net profit, after deducting all his expenses: his employees' pay, his supplies, his truck, his fuel costs, and other legitimate business expenses. He'd have to be an extremely successful plumber.

In response to McCain's statements during the debate, Obama said only 2 percent of small businesses would be subject to the tax.

It seems likely that Obama is right, according to data and an analysis from the experts at the Tax Policy Center.


-and-


Looking at all the tax filers who report any business income at all, the Tax Policy Center confirms that about 2 percent will see their taxes increase under Obama's plan.

In an effort to focus more effectively on small business owners, the Tax Policy Center did an additional analysis where they looked at people who reported business income that accounted for at least 50 percent of their income. This means people who derive a significant living off their business income.

In 2007, about 2 percent of those tax filers would have made enough money to see a tax increase under Obama's plans.


So it doesn't matter what is considered a "small business" among different industries. If you make less than $250,000 a year, you won't get a tax increase, and that includes 98% of the people who report business income.

"The point is many "small business" owners in construction will probably pay considerably more in taxes under Obama." Unsupported generality. This guy sucks.


Lost on the minds of Democrats and Barack Obama is the fact that an increase in federal tax rates does not necessarily mean an increase in federal tax revenues. As a matter of fact, history reveals just the opposite is true.


In 1961 when John F. Kennedy became President, the top marginal tax rate was 91%. Kennedy lowered the top rate to 70%, and more revenue came into the federal treasury from the top wage earners than under the 91% rate.


Wow. His case for stating "lower taxes means more revenue" is pointing to an instance when a tax rate was at 91% and lowering it to 70%. Which, for the sake of simplifying the argument, let's say is a 100% tax rate, dropped down to 80%. If you are taxing nearly everything anyone makes, there's no incentive to earn any money. So, yes, if you give them a tax cut, they're willing to make more, because they're now keeping more. So 70% of say 100K will now be more revenue than 90% of 40K. But his example looks at a far end of the spectrum and makes judgments about the entire thing.

What if I look at a hypothetical where the tax rate was 0%, but was increased to 15%? Now he's telling me because of one instance in the past, that a 15% tax-hike won't increase the net revenue? It's just idiotic. 0% of 150K is still 0. 15% of 100k > 0. And in these hypothetical situations, I've even assumed that the workers will work differently based on their tax rate, which may not even be the case.

lolololol. And his very next argument is that department stores make more money when their items are on sale than not. THEN WHY THE **** IS THERE EVER A "SALE?" WHY AREN'T THEY ALWAYS AT THAT SALE PRICE, YOU ASS-CLOWN. Because they lose money. That's why.

Now he's right that a lower tax sale increases the transactions, but he arbitrarily states that the increased transactions yields more revenue than the money lost from lowering the taxes. And that's just moronic. There is a point at which it will. But you have to look into the details specifically to try and identify that point. What amount of tax decrease will bring more transactions to bring more revenue? Not all tax breaks would, necessarily, but he flatly assumes they do.


See, the Democrats desire to punish financial success as if it is always undeserved. Punishing success is more important than allowing more revenue to come to the federal government because of financial success.


... so your argument is... you're only successful if you're making $250,000+/yr. Shame on rewarding the other 95% of Americans who aren't born into wealth. Let's reward the "successful," or the top 5%. I see. Let's concentrate all the wealth into the very, very small percentage of people who've "earned" it. **** everyone else. It's the big dogs who are "successful." WHAT A GREAT INJUSTICE THE DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE AGAINST THE SUCCESSFUL!! This guy should be shot.

Now read this article and tell me the "successful" need to be coddled - http://www.toomuchonline.org/articlenew2006/Dec7a.html


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10-19-08 08:19 PM
Website  
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
In the interest of full disclosure:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... more-25502

I would like to apologize for my misstating of his plan. In fairness, I hadn't seen any non-partisan analysis of it (provided within this thread, or otherwise). Context is included and relevant. It's still a credit to the majority who are paying taxes, income, payroll, or otherwise. And McCain's plan carries a similar function.

Also, I've been overstating the $250,000 bracket. That's for couples. Singles is $200,000.  Still, his plan is much more fair. Do take a look at that study on the world's wealth. The data seems pretty straight forward.


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10-19-08 10:45 PM
Website  
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
Colin Powell lays some truth. http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/20/ ... index.html :


"Taxes are always a redistribution of money. Most of the taxes that are redistributed go back to those who pay them -- in roads and airports and hospitals and schools," President Bush's former secretary of state said. "And taxes are necessary for the common good, and there's nothing wrong with examining what our tax structure is or who should be paying more, who should be paying less.

"For us to say that makes you a socialist, I think, is an unfortunate characterization that isn't accurate."


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10-20-08 07:13 PM
Website  
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
Crunching the numbers of who pays in Obama's tax plan - http://www.politifact.org/truth-o-meter ... -answered/

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10-21-08 08:12 AM
Website  
Golbez
Dirty Bastid

From: Michigan
Registered: 06-20-05
Posts: 1770
Egads! McCain is a communist!

Obama was wrong about one thing; the Bush tax cuts did in fact give tax breaks "to folks who make less," including the previously mentioned 10 percent tax bracket, "marriage penalty" relief and an increase in the per-child tax credit, all of which Obama proposes to keep. What his plan would do is provide even more tax benefits at the middle and low end of the scale, while increasing taxes at the top.

This way of "spread[ing] the wealth around" is hardly a new concept. The United States already has a progressive tax system by which high earners are taxed at higher rates than those who make less. Obama would make it somewhat more progressive. (The Williams ad uses the term "taxing the rich.")

McCain himself hasn't always seemed so opposed to progressive taxation. Here's what he said in a 2000 meeting with college students sponsored by the MSNBC program "Hardball," when questioned about the issue:

    McCain, Oct. 12, 2000: [W]e feel, obviously, that wealthy people can afford more.
    ....
    And I think middle-income Americans, working Americans ... all of the taxes that working Americans pay, I think they – you would think that they also deserve significant relief, in my view.
    ...
    [H]ere's what I really believe, that when you are – reach a certain level of comfort, there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more.

In fact, the system would remain progressive under McCain's tax plan. His argument with Obama isn't about whether to "spread the wealth," but by how much.

Also, as we now know, Joe the Plumber would almost certainly be entitled to a tax cut if Obama's plan were implemented – and a larger one than he'd get under McCain's.


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10-27-08 02:09 AM
Website  
Iskander
Moderator

From: In the aeroplane over the sea
Registered: 04-24-06
Posts: 359
ugh, I haven't been around for a few days and I come back to an abundance of text....

Anyways, I've already voted for a candidate that I didn't really want to vote for in the first place, but he's the lesser of two evils, in my opinion. I almost went third party, but decided not to at the last minute.  It seems we are at a stalemate on the whole oil issue. I won't touch on that anymore.

Over the last 8 years we have become more and more socialistic, the government keeps meddling in affairs that it has no business being involved in.  Obama will make it worse, but McCain probably will too, or at least not be able to do anything about it, with so many losses in the house and senate. 




I'll leave you with this lengthy article, I just came across it this morning. He explains it much better than I ever could.

http://townhall.com/columnists/NealBoor ... ided_voter


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my chalk outline will stalk these grounds

10-28-08 02:56 PM
   
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